[hpsdr] Ozy/Magister will likely stop working on Win10 in about60 days

Terry Fox tfox at knology.net
Sat Aug 20 15:06:15 PDT 2016 

Hey George,
By trashcan I only meant that I would end up having to replace the Ozy in 
Atlas with a Metis, and I'd rather spend those dollars on other SDR 
projects.  Plus, if the Ozy is no longer supported, my Ozy/Janus combo for 
SoftRocks becomes unusable - I think.

I have moved ALL my newer computers (about ten) to Win10, from Win 8, Win7, 
Vista, and XP.  The only computers that use UFEI at the moment are a new 
Dell XPS8900 and both Surface Pros (3 & 4).  My SP3 dual-boots to Ubuntu as 
well as Win10, so I already turned off secure boot on it.  I'm waiting for 
some newer info on the SP4 before dual-booting it as well.

My comment about TAPR was only that they seem to be an organization that 
could collect funds, and possibly be a focal point for this.  I would be 
willing to chip in some money to get properly signed drivers for at least a 
while longer.

I'm not interested in yet another OS war, I have a love/hate relationship 
with both Windows and Linux.  They both have good points and bad points. 
However, Apple is the devil (kidding).
73, Terry, N4TLF

-----Original Message----- 
From: George Byrkit
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2016 2:15 PM
To: 'Terry Fox' ; 'Scott Traurig'
Cc: 'OpenHPSDR'
Subject: RE: [hpsdr] Ozy/Magister will likely stop working on Win10 in 
about60 days

Dear Terry,
Thank you for your response.  I'm not sure that the 'trashcan' reference is 
all about, but
I think that you are asking for the type of solution that I am putting 
forward (properly
signed, just works), and not the many possible work-arounds that Scott is 
bringing up.  Am
I right in that?

Just so everyone knows, when Windows 7 came out, and it was clear that many 
people were
using 64 bit versions of the OS, it was NOT possible to just install the 
driver, as we
didn't have a signed driver package for libusb0 configured for Ozy/Magister. 
At that
time, a Ham who worked for a company that had a code-signing certificate 
(maybe he was a
principal), worked with us to sign the Ozy/Magister USB driver so that it 
would install on
a 64 bit OS without all the rigmarole that Scott Traurig is proposing that 
we move
backwards to.  So I have strong resistance to follow the short-cuts and 
back-sliding that
Scott is proposing that we entertain putting up with.  I know that it is NOT 
in the best
interest of Ozy/Magister users.

Do you currently have Windows 10, or are planning to move to it?  This 
project has gone
beyond TAPR, and has a life of its own at this point.  We cannot expect TAPR 
to plonk down
the money for this, I think (speaking as a TAPR board member, also.)  The 
best deal in a
code-signing certificate is a 3 year certificate.

For example, one of the better-priced certificate vendors is:
https://www.digicert.com/order/order-1.php
You will see that it costs $500 for a 1 year Code Signing EV certificate, 
but for about
twice that price you get 3 years of signing.  If someone like me were vested 
with the
power to sign such things, many amateur radio ventures could take advantage 
of it.  But
again, I wouldn't expect TAPR to swoop in and solve the problem of money.

Not only is there the cost of the certificate, but there is the time that it 
will take to
sign and prepare the submittal to Microsoft, receive the signed package back 
from
Microsoft, and provide it on the OpenHPSDR website and FTP site as a 
download.  I'm still
working for a living, so time isn't really 'free'.  But I'm working part 
time now, being
half-retired, so I do have some bandwidth to devote to this, as well as the 
knowledge of
the process.

73,
George K9TRV

-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Fox [mailto:tfox at knology.net]
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2016 1:49 PM
To: George Byrkit <ghbyrkit at chartermi.net>; 'Scott Traurig' 
<scott.traurig at gmail.com>
Cc: 'OpenHPSDR' <hpsdr at openhpsdr.org>
Subject: Re: [hpsdr] Ozy/Magister will likely stop working on Win10 in 
about60 days

Speaking as someone that has both an Ozy/Janus boardset (for Softrocks), and
a complete Ozy-based Atlas rig, I would like to see a solution that doesn't
involve a trashcan.  I believe this is a direct response and germane to this
discussion.  Maybe TAPR (or other org?) could collect funds to keep this
problem at bay for at least a year or so?

73, Terry, N4TLF (formally WB4JFI)


-----Original Message----- 
From: George Byrkit
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2016 12:58 PM
To: 'Scott Traurig'
Cc: 'OpenHPSDR'
Subject: Re: [hpsdr] Ozy/Magister will likely stop working on Win10 in
about60 days

***** High Performance Software Defined Radio Discussion List *****

Scott,

But every new Dell, HP, etc. computer that people buy come with Secure Boot
turned on.  So for a limited number of people it is not a problem.  But it
is a problem for many people.  The points that you raise are interesting but
I don't think that they address the possible solution sufficiently, nor are
they really on-topic to what I'm raising.

So please let's keep the discussion focused on whether there is a provable
need to go to the expense and time of signing the Ozy/Magister driver
package (libusb0, an older than current version) to keep supporting this
interface, when most people have moved to Metis, Hermes, or their successors
(Apache Labs products.)

Whether the problem can be solved for a limited subset of brave users is not
germain to this discussion.

73,
George K9TRV

-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Traurig [mailto:scott.traurig at gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2016 12:26 PM
To: George Byrkit <ghbyrkit at chartermi.net>
Cc: OpenHPSDR <hpsdr at openhpsdr.org>
Subject: Re: [hpsdr] Ozy/Magister will likely stop working on Win10 in about
60 days

It certainly seems that if Secure Boot is off then most problems will be
alleviated:

http://www.thewindowsclub.com/driver-signing-changes-windows-10

73,

Scott


On Sat, Aug 20, 2016 at 11:20 AM, George Byrkit <ghbyrkit at chartermi.net
<mailto:ghbyrkit at chartermi.net> > wrote:


Scott,
This may or may not work on Windows 10.  Certainly I am ONLY talking about
Windows 10 Build 1607 and later.  It is not reasonable to expect a Ham to
take a boot-time choice each time they (re)boot their computers.  I'm
speaking about generally booting a computer.  I suggest that you review the
article and other related information and make your own conclusion.

What happens for debugging a driver under development is not relevant to
what happens when you use a driver as a normal computer user.  I'm telling
you that MANY drivers from the past will stop working on Windows 10 at Day
60 (or is it 90) after the release of Windows 10 Anniversary (build 1607),
which occurred on August 2, 2016.  One of those affected is the Ozy/Magister
'libusb0' USB driver.

And it is a separate issue if you have Secure Boot enabled in the BIOS of a
modern computer.  YMMV.  Read, be informed, and draw your own conclusions
that are relevant to how you use drivers.

I had not seen a warning about this published on this list.  This will
affect many pieces of HAM hardware, not just USB devices.  It could affect
printers, things like MicroHam 'digikeyer' products and the like, and other
pieces of hardware.

73,
George K9TRV

-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Traurig [mailto:scott.traurig at gmail.com
<mailto:scott.traurig at gmail.com> ]
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2016 11:07 AM
To: George Byrkit <ghbyrkit at chartermi.net <mailto:ghbyrkit at chartermi.net> >
Cc: OpenHPSDR <hpsdr at openhpsdr.org <mailto:hpsdr at openhpsdr.org> >
Subject: Re: [hpsdr] Ozy/Magister will likely stop working on Win10 in about
60 days

George,

Will this no longer work?

http://www.howtogeek.com/167723/how-to-disable-driver-signature-verification-on-64-bit-win
dows-8.1-so-that-you-can-install-unsigned-drivers/
<http://www.howtogeek.com/167723/how-to-disable-driver-signature-verification-on-64-bit-wi
ndows-8.1-so-that-you-can-install-unsigned-drivers/>


73,

Scott/w-u-2-o


On Sat, Aug 20, 2016 at 10:51 AM, George Byrkit <ghbyrkit at chartermi.net
<mailto:ghbyrkit at chartermi.net>  <mailto:ghbyrkit at chartermi.net
<mailto:ghbyrkit at chartermi.net> > > wrote:


        ***** High Performance Software Defined Radio Discussion List *****

        Dear all,

        So Microsoft has a policy for double-signed drivers on Windows 10
that didn't exist
        before, and it will take place between 60 and 90 days after the
release of Windows 10
        Anniversary (build 1607).

        The purpose of this is to ensure that the drivers are fully signed
and fully trusted, at a
        level that is greater than before, in order to be able to load on
any computer with Secure
        Boot active in the BIOS.

        I won't enter into a debate as to whether this is a good thing or a
bad thing.  I will
        only point out that the Ozy/Magister USB drivers for PowerSDR, KISS
Konsole, etc., are NOT
        double-signed, and I don't really see a need to do that, and take
the time, and spend the
        money to do so.

        While the current Ozy/Magister USB driver is single-signed, it is
signed with a
        certificate that is too old to be able to put the package thru
Microsoft to get their
        counter-signature.  If you want more information, I suggest that you
visit
        http://www.osr.com/developers-blog
<http://www.osr.com/developers-blog>  <http://www.osr.com/developers-blog
<http://www.osr.com/developers-blog> >  and check the article 'Driver
Signing - more details
        emerge".

        To do all of this requires a 'code signing certificate' from one of
the vendors of such
        certificates, apparently with 'EV' (extended validation?)  Such seem
to cost $200-$400 per
        year.  Since everything new uses Metis technology (Ethernet), I
don't think that it is
        worth the cost or the hassle to keep supporting Ozy/Magister on
Windows 10.  If someone
        who wants it to keep working donates the money, there might be a
chance to reconsider.

        73,
        George K9TRV

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